Will the Real God Please Stand Up!

A recent article in USA Today about a new book entitled America's Four Gods, identified four distinct views of God in America: Authoritative, Benevolent, Critical, and Distant. Surprisingly America is almost equally divided among these four views. Wayne and Brad discuss how neither of these views does justice to the nature and reality of God. This article confirms how important it is that we connect with God as a reality, not formulate opinions about him as a concept. This spills into a wider discussion about how we help those who can't seem to connect with God beyond their intellectual conclusions about him gathered from their misunderstnding of Scripture or their lives.

43 Comments

  1. Brad!!!!!!

    I’ve made it a point to stay away from “spiritual leaders” who present themselves as the example of how to “do it right”. And here you are doing it on the podcast!

    I used to think that a non-judgmental way to encourage someone was to simply share from my own experience, as in, “Well, I do it this way, and it really works.”

    I’ve discovered that this is usually heard as “Well, I do it the right way, you’re clearly doing it wrong, and you just need to imitate me in order to get better results.”

    I’m happy to hear that you “take the sunset personally”, as in, you experience God’s love as something real and solid and personal to you when you see a beautiful sunset. How nice for you.
    Your irritation and apparent condemnation of those of us who haven’t gotten to that place yet in our journey comes off as arrogant and self righteous.

    The whole point is that this is a journey, yes?
    And that God does the revealing and the work within our hearts, yes?

    I can enjoy the sunset and know that God is good and loving and yet not yet fully grasp and experience this reality on a personal level. Presumably, God is continuing to work within my life to draw me ever closer to his heart. This is what love does, right?

    Wayne, you were right in your comments to Brad on his approach to people who haven’t gotten there yet. Brad, it seems you’re somehow taking it personally that people aren’t thinking and responding as you think they should. That’s not really trusting that God is working individually with each of us, is it? Or, it’s a judgment that people’s hearts aren’t truly sincere . . . . that if we truly desired to know God, we wouldn’t be stuck.
    Reminds me of the messages I used to get that I wasn’t following the program, wasn’t doing my spiritual program right.

    Overall, I love your podcasts, and get good things from both of you.
    This podcast definitely triggered feelings from my past experiences with religion, hence, my reaction.
    (And I’m sure I have absolutely no issues of my own that are feeding into my strong response!)

    Thanks for all you do. Please, just don’t do this again. If you do, I’ll just stop listening, rather than torture myself, since you are also human beings and I can’t really expect you to do this perfectly.
    🙂

  2. Brad – it would help if you let Wayne finish his statements.
    I quite often feel frustrated that an idea Wayne begins sharing about ends up being truncated as Waynes particular thought is left incompleted.

    Richard Wilson
    Who himself tends to do exactly the same thing to others!
    I am being challenged to give others more room myself.

  3. Interesting discussion. If you come to believe that God was with you from your mother’s womb then you don’t have to fret and think “I haven’t spent enough time with God to really know Him :(”

    You have been spending time with God, you just didn’t know it. Now that you do, if you want to you can review and see the “director’s cut” of your life – it’s awesome.

    So it’s a little chicken and eggish – how do you come to believe that God was with you all the time if you don’t know Him? Well, my opinion is that that happens when you trust some other person. When someone that you trust tells you that God is real and that He loves you, then the key at that point is you believing that person.

    And that is the joy that God has given every believer – we get to build relationship with other people to the point that they will trust us enough to believe our message that God loves them. Sounds kind of “cultish” huh?

  4. Sorry I don’t know the original source of this quote, but it goes “when you want your children to listen, whisper; make them lean into you.” I think that is similar to what Wayne was saying about why God is not obtuse He’s a still small voice.

    I don’t always have a ‘feeling’ of being connected to God. In those moments, I just trust that He is there even though I’m not feeling it.

    Sometimes I see others who seem to have an intimacy with God that I want and don’t have. I’ve come to the place where (most of the time) instead of analyzing where I’m going wrong, I just say “Lord, I’m not there yet but I trust that you are leading me.”

    When I do have a feeling of closeness to God, it is almost always when I get an answer to something I inquired of Him. I’m trying to get in the habit of going to God first when I am confused, frustrated, angry, fearful, instead of running to my friends to vent. Even if I’m mad at God, I tell him all about it. It’s so sweet when the answer comes. Sometimes it’s from an unexpected person who doesn’t even know I asked the question, sometimes it’s when I’m reading the scripture, or sometimes it’s just a thought or a feeling of peace that God impressed on my heart. In those moments I do feel close and cared for.

    That’s just my experience. Each person’s relationship with God is going to be as unique as that person is. Don’t feel discouraged if your experience doesn’t look like someone else’s.

  5. Great Podcast (usually):

    I know some people that lost their teenage son in a tragic car accident a few years ago and became disappointed with God. I never really knew how to encourage them in their disappointment. Next time I meet them I’ll be able to say “did you see that sunset, awesome”.

  6. p.s. Maybe you could discuss the difference between intellectual belief/understanding and heart knowledge/revelation.
    My experience is that no matter how much I “tell myself the truth” and decide to believe and trust in God, nothing really changes until I experience an epiphany; a revelation, that connects on a heart level.
    And this, I think, is a supernatural thing that comes as the result of God peeling away the layers of fear and misunderstanding until it finally all comes together.

    For example, a while back I suddenly “got it” that God is good! It was this huge revelation that changed how I saw and experienced everything (I’ve since kinda lost touch with that truth, but I trust I’ll get it again as I grow through various issues).

    I wanted to walk around telling everyone, “God is good! God is good! Isn’t that great? Isn’t this wonderful?” But, those words and the intellectual understanding would only connect with someone who’s received the revelation of it; arrived at a place where they can receive it.

    I don’t think intellectual acknowledgment or acceptance or belief change anything apart from a heart revelation.

  7. In Brad’s defense, what I heard in his voice was a passion for what he was saying, not irritation with people. Sometimes my passion is mistaken for irritation too, because of my “tone”. So I can sympathize.

    We can’t all talk in the sweet, quiet, dulcet inflections of a robotic movie Jesus who never raises his voice and is always speaks “nicely”. Knowing Emily Post is not a requirement for knowing God.

    And I’m being passionate, not irritated. Maybe a bit snarky, but snarky is okay, right? 🙂

  8. 🙂
    yes, snarky is okay. Point well taken.

    Also, even if a person is feeling irritated, it’s not the end of the world; just part of being human.
    (I’m learning to be okay with my very human, not always kind and pleasant, emotions. I guess this would need to include my reaction to this podcast!)

  9. I just heard the God Journey Intro music on a KIA Sportage car commercial. Surprise, surprise!

  10. It’s all good, Lynelle. I just felt like I had to stand up for us “tone deaf” folks who often don’t realize how we sound to others… 🙂

  11. Hey guys,

    I’m a long-time listener but a first-time commenter. I know that this may sound weird, but I think it was a good thing for them to have such a disagreement on the air. It reminds us that they are just as human as the rest of us.

    Truthfully, I don’t think either one of them handled it very well. Both had valid points but were coming from different perspectives. In fact, part of the reason I enjoy listening is because they each look at some of the topics they discuss from different points of view. Besides, even Paul and Barnabas greatly disagreed with each other.

    It sounded to me that there was some tension from the beginning of the podcast. Who knows, maybe Wayne had to cat-sit for Brad and was really irritated by the experience. We’ve got to remember these are two guys having a conversation and we’re just eavesdropping.

    Brad and Wayne, keep doing what you do as long as God wants you to, and I appreciate everything both of you have done to help struggling believers.

  12. We all see things and process them through our own unique paradigm. If someone has not yet had a revelation of how much God loves them, and their paradigm has always been that God is waiting with a big stick to hit them as soon as they do something wrong, then when they see a beautiful sunset they may well recognise that it was the Almighty God who created such a wonder, but it still won’t give them any joy in their heart because through their paradigm, He might be Almighty but He still has a big stick in His hand.

    I have neve been in any doubt about God’s ability to create exquisette beauty, but for most of my life my paradigm has been that God is so fed up with my inability to conform, that I couldn’t enjoy His creative brilliance. But now, thanks particularly to your pod casts and Wayne’s other teachings, my paradigm has begun to change and I am able to enjoy His beauty everywhere because I am learning what it means to enjoy Him and I have been able to see that there is no big stick in His hand afterall. His raised hand is actually a gesture of welcome.

  13. Brad and Wayne, first of all, you guys are really nice guys and it seems like you have raised wonderful families.

    That being said, you guys kind of irritate me. Over the last year, I’ve become a dogmatic agnostic. There may be a God, but there’s no way to know for sure. I no longer believe in the God of the Bible, so as far as Bible God goes, I’m an atheist.

    Brad and Wayne, the “God” you guys talk about is a lovey touchy-feeling, sweetheart God, which is definitely not the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible hates sinners and is eager to fry them in hell for all eternity. My question for you is this. Feel free to believe in whatever God you want to believe in, but why do you claim that your view of God is in line with what the Bible says about God? Brad and Wayne, I like your God better than Bible God. I just think you’re wrong for implying that your God is the God of the Bible. sorry if this is confusing.

  14. Now that I’ve listened to the conversation I want to say that I appreciated the discussion, even the wrestling with the question “How do I help another on their journey to discover the Father who loves them, for themselves?”.

    I am challenged about this myself. I don’t think there is a blueprint.
    As you wrote in your blog topic “All the help you need”
    > And it may be that he will lead you to one of the best resources God has on the planet—brothers and sisters in whom his life has taken shape. Like “John” in the So You Don’t Want to Go To Church Anymore, they come alongside people who need help with a mixture of questions, encouragement, prayer and love that magnifies God’s reality in the human heart and invites people into freedom. They don’t have a formula to follow here, but are listening with you as the Spirit makes his unique process known that will overturn the darkness in your life and help you learn to trust the Father who will never betray you.
    <
    To encourage another is a journey of listening to them and listening to the voice of the Spirit. Sometimes we just need to be there, sometimes there is a word to share, sometimes a piece of our experience may be of value – there is no blueprint. In truth it is the work of God's Spirit as he connects with our spirit.

    Blessings on you both. Keep wrestling and sharing.

  15. I guess the onus is on me not to provide additional venomous comments. Anyway this one is @ Mika’il regarding Wayne & Brad’s God vs the bible God.

    Recently I have gone on a rodent trail looking at the how the bible was translated and canonized – to me the process was weird. I guess what I am saying is that aside from techniques like reading the bible through the lens of “God is love”, the literal book we have in our hands may not in some instances be an accurate representation of what was intended.

    Admittedly there are some hard to reconcile sections, however some instances may have been amplified by translators agendas, especially with regards to judgement/hell. In fact, the current Christian understanding on “deep frying” seems quite far off base, and is more of a tool for manipulating masses, and has not been approved by the management (God).

    I appreciated Lynelle’s comments about “receiving revelation” reminiscent of Jn 14: 25-27 on the Holy Spirit teaching you all things. I am starting to think that maybe the bible as we have it is not as accurate/helpful as His revelation to your heart, as Lynelle mentions.

    Your thoughts Mika’il?

  16. Hey Lynelle,

    I am at a distinct disadvantage, because I have no idea about your life and what may be going on—but my apologies if anything in what I said, or my tone of voice, communicated that I am pretending to be some expert who knows how to do it right and has condemnation or irritation for those who don’t get it. That’s not what is in my heart, nor anything close to what I was hoping to communicate. None of this is scripted, so if we fumble things at times—that is to be expected. We are both painfully and wonderfully human.

    That said, I do think Wayne reacted a bit, and misinterpreted what I was trying to say a little and thus the conversation ended up going in a different direction. Contrary to how the podcast ended, I’m not frustrated or irritated with people who don’t get that God loves them. Quite the opposite. If I have a frustration, it’s at reinforcing the thoughts and conclusions that unintentionally hinder our capacity to learn and grow in that realm. I’m comforted that Ken heard it more as passion. Hoping a few others did as well.

    It’s a lot harder to hear or perceive what God might be doing when I have settled on the conclusion that He doesn’t love me, or that I have done “everything” and it just doesn’t work. I’m not advocating some goofy “power of positive thinking” or denying the reality of someone’s past pain, wounding or whatever. It’s just much harder to start in a ditch. Far easier to connect when I choose to embrace what is “T” TRUE, or at least that it might be true—that God does love me and does want to communicate, and has in fact equipped me with the capacity to hear. By putting a little wind in our sails in that direction as opposed to poking a hole in my own boat—it is a bit easier to start connecting and being able to recognize it. If I am nursing a wound, have settled in an offense, or have concluded that I am the odd man out—it’s like sticking my fingers in my ears. It’s just harder to hear when that is the case.

    I had hoped to offer some things that I know have helped “me,” and do so as an encouragement – not voice as a complaint or critical condemnation. I personally don’t think it is helpful when we reinforce conclusions that people have often drawn in their pain and hurt. Validate them as people, and the struggle they are in? Absolutely! — but not the conclusions they may have drawn. That’s all I was trying to get at. I wasn’t in Minnesota to know what Wayne was referring to or trying to be sensitive to? Could be part of Ken’s conclusion that I am one of those tone deaf people…. who knows?! To any and all who were offended or ?? – my genuine apologies.

    Thanks for your feedback and interaction…
    Brad

  17. Thanks, Brad. No worries

    I guess I’ve learned that, even though I’ve come a long way, I still can be “set off” by something that reminds me of past abuses. One of the reasons I don’t “go to church”.

    It’s good to know you’re not irritated with me, or others like me (though, you’re allowed to feel however you feel)

    I truly do appreciate the God Journey podcast. It has been life changing for me.

    It helps to keep hearing the message of love . . . what real love is. Letting it soak into my soul.

    Lynelle

  18. Mika’il – I think God takes sin personally – if He is any kind of personal being I do hope He does take sin personally – it offends Him deeply – yet the glory of The Cross is what He has done about freeing us from sins grip. While we were still sinners, enemies of God. He died so we may live. I pray one day you can see this. It blows me away how much I am loved by someone who so hates my disease. Hates it enough to lay His life down to heal me from it – lays down His life to reconcile me to God. I am deeply grateful. The Bible says God does not delight in the death of the wicked – it grieves Him that they repressed His Truth and chose sins consequence when they never needed to, Life was there for the taking. As I listened to the podcast and thought about the god each catergory described they all seemed very man centered views and when man is wanting to be the star of the show you may as well close the curtian before opening night. Brad and Wayne touched on how creation declares the glory of God but now God has revealed to all mankind something even greater than creation – The Cross. It is just not fashionable to talk about its many wonders these days. We are all too busy trying to tell people God loves them in everyway we can possibly think of except talking about The Way God has declared His Love.

  19. Once again I found myself listening to the podcast on my way to a women’s prison to participate in a Christian retreat weekend. God’s timing always amazes me. This new technology, podcasting, presents new challenges in communicating because we have the voices only and the unscripted aspect reminds me of the early days of television comedy when the jokes were live and spontaneous and sometimes it didn’t work out very well. What I love about The God Journey is TWO REAL GUYS talking about God. What I heard is like Ken’s, two different personalities, two approaches, unique in their own way and reflecting the heart of a Father whose love has no boundaries. It was funny for me, as they took turns sharing the difference I realized I’ve done both. Brad’s definition of vulnerable was extremely helpful as I approached the prison to share His Love with others who are accutely aware of the of downside of being vulnerable and female. What’s cool about Brad and Wayne is that everything is said in context of “having a relationship”. Everything I learn here is relational. I am so grateful.

  20. I’ve tried to comment here before and it never seems to work for me… I will try once again. Hey guys!!! Lay off Brad! They’re having a conversation… whether or not he may be interrupting Wayne is not your problem. If it really bothers Wayne, I’m sure he would share that with Brad. Wayne is always able to get right back to his point, or the conversation usually takes another really good twist! If it were only Wayne on here, I don’t think I’d be as interested cause it would sound like “another” sermon… if it were only Brad, I’d go crazy because of his “silliness”…(and I mean that with the greatest respect… I have such a heart for both of these men…) I think what we have here is a GREAT balance and REAL conversations that we can grow from.
    I love how people get offended at things that they think were said in a judgmental way and then go about judging the way they have a REAL conversation. My opinion.

  21. Whoops and now I see that Brad commented here too!! SEE! Passion. THAT is what I like about Brad. He took the time to share his heart. He didn’t have to because if they answered every person that takes offense they would be doing that all the time.
    Anyway… keep being real guys!! I personally know you’re not perfect… I don’t mind!!! 🙂
    Bless you brothers!

  22. I have been tyring to find this place you guys discribe week after week. I left the “church” about 3 or 4 years ago after 49 years and I am just alone now as then. I can’t find Father God. I keep trying and as distastful as you find that Brad I am not going to give up. I don’t have the people around that want to hear from me. I don’t get to feel the acceptance of adoring groups asking me to come share with them. I get nothing… nothing from God nothing from people.

  23. To Michelle:

    I know that place too. It’s a place where theory doesn’t work – its the realm of the “dark night of the soul”. It is also a place where a “small still voice” doesn’t always cut it, and where “fireworks” seem more appealing. I think that’s what Job was asking for too.

    Praying that this “nothing” period ends soon for you and that your joy will return. Till then, hang in there girl.

  24. Michelle, I know exactly how you feel. I would love to talk with you.
    Hey, Moderator, is there some way for us to exchange contact info without making it public to everyone?

  25. Hi I really enjoy your podcasts. I’ve just wanted to share this extract from a Henri Nouwen book. To me it sums up this wonderful journey we’re all on. Hope it encourages everyone as it has me.

    ‘God loved you before you were born, and God will love you after you die. In Scripture God says, ‘I have loved you with an everlasting love.’ This is a very fundamental truth of your identity. This who you are whether you feel it or not. You belong to God from eternity to eternity. Life is just a little opportunity for you during a few years to say, ‘I love you, too.’ Extract taken from Finding My Way Home by Henri Nouwen.’

    😀

  26. A couple of things came to mind during your podcast today – what a great discussion, definately “2 real guys” sharing their journey with us.

    The first is about discovering who the “real” God is – authoritative, distant, benevolent..? In John 4 the woman at the well ran back to her village and told everyone about the amazing man she’d met. After meeting Jesus for themselves they said to her “Now we believe, not just because of what you told us, but because we have heard him for ourselves.” Imagine if they had not accepted her invitation to go with her to meet Jesus – their belief and their picture of Him would have been based on what she said, not on a personal encounter with Him.

    If we listen to how other people perceive Jesus instead of pursuing a relationship with Him for ourselves then we will get a biased picture from them according to their experience. The only way to truly discover who a person is, is by spending time with them, not merely reading about them or listening to others talking about them.

    I love how the Amplified Bible translates Philippians 3 v10: “For my determined purpose is that I may progressively become more deeply and intimately acquainted with Him, understanding the wonders of His person more fully and clearly.” Paul knew that there were untold depths to be discovered in Jesus and he was determined to pursue Him above all else.

    I wish there was a formula for revealing Jesus to people so that they too have an intimate relationship with Him, but every heart has a different starting point and there just aren’t “7 steps to intimacy with God”. However, a scene from the film “Life is Beautiful” always encourages me that God is able to speak to us individually right where we are. The family in the film become separated in the German concentration camp they have been sent to, but while his wife despairs as to whether her husband is still alive, he finds a way of letting her know that he is there. When clearing tables in the Nazi Officers’ dining room, he finds a record that he and his wife listened to when falling in love; he takes the record player to the open window and plays it. Alone in her dormitory, his wife hears it from across the camp and knows that it has to be him who is playing that song – he is alive and he has found a way of letting her know that he loves her! Anyone else who heard that music would not know its significance, but to them it meant everything.

    Since I found that being with is God is a safe, welcoming and loving place to be, the greatest desire of my heart has been to pursue Him and invite others to do the same, in the confidence that God knows the music to play to reach our hearts, to show us just how much He loves us and how He longs for a deeper relationship with us.

  27. Wayne and Brad,
    I really enjoyed this podcast, in fact I am going to listen to it again which is something I rarely do. I felt I learned more from this discussion, even though you were both at odds a couple, you still both had good points to share and to stimulate further thought.
    I really appreciate Wayne’s patient perspective in coming alongside those of us who maybe struggling to have that intimate connection with the Father that we desire. In my own life when I ask for God to reveal His love to me, I am trying to learn to look for and wait for those quiet moments or events through out the day, by which my Father speaks to me as a opposed to looking for something upfront and dramatic. Sometimes it is a person who comes into my life during the day for a moment with a few words, or an email, or a new understanding on His word which reveals something special about our Fathers love towards me.
    Thank you both and keep up the good work!

  28. Great discussion today, fellas! I really don’t understand why all the “hubbub” from some on this board. I wasn’t offended by Brad at all. And, Wayne didn’t offend me either. I understand Brad’s frustration, and I “get” Wayne’s perspective as well. That’s why it’s called a DI-ALOGUE. Two dudes, two opinions (sometimes different), two personalities. It’s what makes the conversation work. Our society has become too friggin sensitive about everything said. You can’t seem to say “boo” without offended somebody these days. With blogs, message boards, email, and such, EVERYBODY’S a critic or a wannabee writer who wears their feelings on their sleeves. Every disagreement is taken personally by someone, and every differing opinion is viewed as a potential “threat” to another’s ideology. That sure doesn’t sound like brothers and sisters learning to grow and mature together in love, does it? We take ourselves and our opinions way too seriously these days it seems. Maybe it’s simplistic, but I think when we’re relaxing into living loved, there is such a freedom that begins to be experienced, and we’re able to accept people where they are, and begin to see them as Christ sees them, because it’s HIS life that giving us a great life! And our “powers of persuasion” or ability to argue our viewpoints hold little sway in how we relate to each other. Just my two cents. You dudes keep slingin’, keep challenging, keep living loved! Rock on!

  29. I was going to comment along the lines of Lynelle’s after listening to the podcast -I do wish there was just a little less silly interruptions of each other -then, the thot occurred to me that what would really be great is if you could pull in a third party (trinitarian dynamic, eh?) who could lend additional relational insight into the podcast. Seriously!

  30. Jim, you raise some interesting ideas. I’ll have to look more into that and do my research before I can share my thoughts. Thanks for sharing, though.

    Deb, you seem to be operating from the assumption that the Bible and the Gospels, in particular, are historically accurate. This is a VERY debatable conclusion.

  31. Mika’il – I noticed a few years ago that in the gospel of John, it seems like the theme of that book is the pharisees accusing Jesus of not accurately representing the God of the bible (the same thing you are saying that B&W are doing). But Jesus never backs down – he keeps quoting the bible and claiming that he and the God of the old testament are one.

    So that paradox existed long before Brad and Wayne – it began with Jesus. What is the answer to the puzzle…? “God was in Christ reconciling us to Himself”. That’s the short answer – the long answer is best received over time, direct from him 🙂

  32. Oh the debatable conclusions.

    I was just discussing with a friend what we actually know about “frying in hell for all eternity”. Now THAT is debatable—and in this debate, no firm conclusion can be drawn. The Bible give us some snapshots of hell, but at the very least, none of them lead me to think that God is eager for us to be there.

    Mika’il, there’s so much to say about your comment. But what compels me most is that despite the views you’re expressing; here you are.

  33. Kiel, here I am is right. Towards the end of my days as a believer, I listened to this podcast frequently, and I occasionally still visit this site. In my attempt to remain balanced and well-rounded, I try to visit both Christian and non-believer web sites.

  34. mika’il – I don’t assume the bible is historically accurate. I just believe it is. I am a late in life believer – unchurched – I believe the witness of these men who hung out with jesus and I believe the things jesus says.

  35. Mika’il:

    I watched a couple hours of television last night, and I felt perpetually assaulted with depictions of Christians being assholes, and everybody else mocking them for it. It made me think that if I didn’t know Jesus personally, the current popular climate would likely pressure me into disbelief—but that’s the thing, I ACTUALLY believe. I don’t believe in Christ-as-God based on authority. I have not been convinced by empirical evidence. I believe in him because I KNOW him. My entire interior landscape is covered in his fingerprints. I can’t seem to escape him in fact. No matter how persuasive the arguments might be against him, I can’t deny his presence.

    It sounds like you’re hanging out at both Christian and “secular” blogs and resources. My advice would be to actually confront God himself, rather than speakers, teachers & thinkers. Get alone, and just talk to him. If you are open to his presence, he’ll be there.

    That being said, if you really want to debate the evidence, there’s a crap-ton of apologetics resources as I’m sure you know. My favorite being the Veritas forum. I find Q&A sessions the most useful. Dallas Willard is currently nearest to my heart.

    If you want to talk more drop me an email kielpwest@gmail.com.

  36. Deb, no problem. If what you believe gives you peace, pursue that. Even though I disagree with you, I assume you’re not hurting anyone or breaking any laws, so I encourage you to continue on the path you’re on.

    Kiel, oh, believe me. I’ve talked to God plenty. It’s just that he hasn’t talked to me. I prefer to have conversations with people that talk back to me when I talk to them. If you hear from God in an objective and non-subjective way, I’d like to know what your secret is.

  37. Mika’il:

    I think that one point most of us (including me) don’t fully comprehend is that God deals with each one of us on an individual basis (kind of like parents with each of their children). There seems to be no standard way to hear from God because His relationship with each one of us is so unique. I, like you have been going through the “dark night of the soul” for a few years now. People who have not been there have no “friggen clue” what that is like. How, why or even when do we get out of this situation beats me. My hope is that those of us who are going through this will one day feel “normal again” in our relationship with Him. Until then, my advice is to crack open a few nice cold beers – I really don’t know what else to do.

  38. Mika’ll

    One thing to note, sometimes when I talk to God, I have to first talk to the enemy and tell him to f*** off.

  39. Nothing really intelligent to add here – just wanted to hit the 40th comment mark since 40 is such a magic number (like Israel’s 40 years in the wilderness, a 40 ounce bottle of scotch, etc.)

  40. Jim, thanks for your honesty. I find it quite refreshing. I’m with you on the beer part. I have found a cold one or two is able to make me feel relaxed and carefree a lot more than prayer ever did.

  41. Mika’il,

    I can definitely relate to what Jim is talking about there. I know what it’s like to feel a wall. What’s it been like for you?

  42. Kiel, that’s too complicated a question to answer in a comment thread.

Comments are closed.